Katherine Marshall interviewed Rajmohan Gandhi for the Berkley Center for Religion, Peace and World Affairs on April 18 2009 and has given us permission to reproduce her interview.

Rajmohan Gandhi is a biographer and grandson of Mahatma Gandhi. A product of the Modern School in New Delhi, Gandhi is a journalist and political activist as well as a research professor at the Centre for Policy Studies in New Delhi, India. He has written widely on the Indian independence movement and its leaders, India-Pakistani relations, human rights and conflict resolution. He has held appointments as visiting professor in the United States and Japan and received honorary degrees from universities in Canada, Japan and the Kyrgyz Republic. Professor Gandhi also served as a member of the Upper House of India's Parliament and led the Indian government delegation to the U.N. Human Rights Commission annual meeting in Geneva. He contested the Lok Sabha elections in 1989 but was defeated. After that, he was tipped to be I&B minister in V.P Singh's government in 1990 but he did not get the position, much to his disappointment. Rajmohan Gandhi has been actively involved with Initiatives of Change for the last several decades. In 2009 he was elected President of the International Council of Initiatives of Change.

You were recently elected as President for Initiatives of Change International (succeeding Mohamed Sahnoun). When and how did you become involved with this organization?

I have been involved for 52 years, ever since I was 21 years old.

I had been aware of Moral Rearmament (or MRA - as it was then known) even earlier, largely through its plays that were shown in many places, including India. I was intrigued but at a distance. I had no direct contacts with the organization until I met it in Scotland.

I spent a year in Scotland in 1956-57, as an apprentice for The Scotsman, and there I came into far closer contact with MRA. I was able to experience what they were trying to do and how they were doing it. MRA involved what seemed to me at the time an extraordinary range of people, both multi-religious and multi-racial, something which was not common in India and elsewhere then. There were British people, Americans, Africans, Europeans of all kinds, and south Asians. There was about the organization a naturalness, a candor, and a human simplicity that I found very appealing. It reminded me of what I had learned from my grandfather. So I became associated with MRA and have worked with them ever since.

What was the central appeal of the ideas you encountered at the time?

I was attracted more than anything else by the simplicity of their guiding idea – that to bring about change, you first must change yourself, that you need to start with the individual. That led to the important notion that how you were living should match your goals. But even deeper was the idea and belief that every human being has a destiny, that there is a divine plan that you can discover. I found this wonderful. It gave me inspiration that I could do something useful, and for that I was thankful.

I had imbibed many lessons from my grandfather about change and believed that it involved commitment, discipline, and courage. But to me it seemed that bringing about significant change was reserved for great people. The idea that every person could play a part was new and, as I said, quite wonderful. Thus I was able to link the core, basic ideas of MRA to the work of my grandfather and to my upbringing. I worked more and more closely with MRA over the years. At first I was a volunteer, then came to work full time with the organization, in different parts of the world.

Can you say something about your MRA work in India?

My own focus has always been on reconciliation in India and the sub-continent. Thus I have focused there on the Asia Plateau Conference Centre, which we created in India. The Centre serves as a retreat and conference center. It is at Panchgani, in Western Maharashtra, about a 62-mile drive south of Pune, and I played a leading part in establishing it as a meeting place. We began building in 1966 and finished in 1973. I take some pride that we raised the money for the Centre entirely without bribing. We bought little bits of land, just a bit at a time, and now have 80 acres or so there.

The Centre is engaged in very varied kinds of reconciliation work. As you know too well, there are many tensions and conflicts within India, and we work for reconciliation on all fronts, and have dealt with many issues over the decades. This includes working with different castes, trade unions and management, the Naga rebels in northeast India, and many rival groups. We bring in government and civil society, and work from senior government officials to local and lower level civil servants. We have done much work with civil servants – that has been a large focus of our work, and the Indian Administrative Service (IAS) has engaged closely with us. For example, we take retired civil servants of the highest caliber and pair them to work with younger, newer officers. We work with state governments as well as the central civil service. Sometimes we mix different groups, sometimes offer separate training programs. We now run about 30-40 conferences a year.

We have worked to help resolve tensions across the sub-continent, in Kashmir, India, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka. Sadly, the sub-continent has many tensions.

The Centre is thriving and growing. I used to spend much of my time there. Today I spend as much time as I can, and am happy that it runs well without me!

What about your work with Moral Rearmament and Initiatives for Change worldwide?

I have been involved in all aspects of IoC’s work, but perhaps the most significant may be my effort to encourage the organization to focus on the tensions involving Muslims and Christians, Muslims and Hindus, and other points of conflict between religious groups.

I remember you talking some years ago (in Fes) about building a “wall of peace” as an inspiration and beacon of hope for the Muslim world. Can you elaborate on what you had in mind?

What I hope for is that Muslims everywhere can and should build and defend walls of protection. They have much to build them on, in their history and traditions. In many Arab majority communities, Jews lived peacefully as members of the community for centuries. What all majority groups need to do is to create a society where everyone feels safe – Christian and Muslim minorities in India, and minorities everywhere, including in Muslim-majority lands.

What do you see as the main elements that can achieve this goal?

Many factors can play a part. Obviously laws and constitutions are a foundation and play key roles. And indeed, most constitutions do have wording that supports rights and protections for minorities. You need a sound judiciary to enforce the constitution. You need strong political leadership. The media can play a crucial role. And so can citizens. A small group of citizens in a neighborhood can be committed to assuring the security of the “other,” whether different religions or castes or ethnic group. Communities can take pride in their commitment to protect and assure security to the “other,” even where their traditions are very different.

Have you witnessed examples of this taking place? What can cause it to break down?

Sometimes even in situations of peace and harmony, a frenzy can take over and people can lose and forget their humanity and do horrible deeds, then be tormented by them for many years. But nonetheless, there are many inspirational examples, in many parts of the world. In Africa, alongside tensions and conflicts there are examples of communities living side by side and protecting one another and of remarkable cases of forgiveness that have come frequently and rapidly.

What in your view is the key to bringing about respect and reconciliation?

We focus above all on the independence of the individual. We need to take responsibility for ourselves as individuals, and train ourselves not to be drawn away from our beliefs. All of us need to convey this sense to our children, that we can live lives that are true and brave. That we can fight against arrogance, pride, and willfulness. And we can remember that in most societies most people are reconciled, and are seemingly happy coexisting together.

How do you see the evolution in thinking and approach of Moral Rearmament and Initiatives for Change?

The organization has changed a great deal over the years; today it is very unlike the institution and groupings of the early days. Moral Rearmament had two strong and charismatic leaders that defined and shaped its early years, leaders who were widely respected and obeyed. First came Frank Buchman, the founder, who was a forceful personality. He was followed by Peter Howard, a journalist who was also personally very inspiring. But he died at a young age.

Since then, and this is a welcome change, leadership is widely shared. Instead, country teams have taken the initiative and have generated and found inspiration in their individual circumstances. The Initiative for Change programs today are the result of initiatives generated by local groups, on an amazing array of different topics.

Can you give some examples?

In the United States, race relations, growing especially out of work in the Richmond, Virginia has been a key theme, growing into the Hope in the Cities program. This has brought together people from different ethnic groups, African Americans, whites, school officials, media, church leaders, and others. A wide and very solid group built a continuing program and tradition of reconciliation. Their work is remarkable and you should visit them. The programs have sparked interest in many inner city communities, where ethnic tensions are all too common.

IofC has reconciliation programs in many parts of the world, including Benin, Ivory Coast, and Nigeria. What links them is that they are grass roots programs that draw on strengths in the community and on very different, often unusual, partnerships.

IofC has many initiatives that bring Muslims and non-Muslim together. These programs focus especially on contexts in which Muslims are minorities – which is many places around the world today, and especially in the US and Europe.

The Imam and Pastor film is a special inspiration, drawing on the experience and example of two remarkable Nigerians, Imam Muhammad Ashafa and Pastor James Wuye. The methodology that this example shows in practice is taking root in many places. The film is now available in a dozen or so languages. The Arabic version was recently launched in Lebanon.

But IofC works very differently in different parts of the world, as indeed it should.

Today a number of serious reconciliation efforts continue in situations of acute conflict, including quite a few countries in Africa.

Bill Porter, an Englishman with long experience in the Balkans and France, worked on media ethics, and founded the International Communications Forum. He was a particularly charming and convincing speaker. Sadly, he died a few weeks ago. He did remarkable work focused on the central and critical roles that the media can play in fostering a less corrupt and more compassionate society.

What IofC programs today inspire you the most?

The Caux Scholars Program is remarkable. For the last 20 years, it has allowed some 20-30 young people each year to come together for training in conflict resolution. Many are US citizens, but come from many backgrounds and parts of the world. They are very bright academics, and they become deeply involved in the core, simple ideas behind Initiatives for Change – that they can make a difference, and to do so they should start by looking inward, and learning to apologize and to forgive. There are wonderful alumni of the program who are very much part of today’s conflict resolution community worldwide. Randy Ruffin was the pioneer who worked to get the program started.

“Foundations for Freedom” is another valuable program. After the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, it became clear that training was needed for democracy to be translated into practice in countries released from Communism. People had become used to rules, to ideas imposed from above. Democracy is about practice and habits but it also has moral and spiritual foundations. Foundations for Freedom was founded in 1993 to provide training in living out and practicing the principles of democracy. It is working in many places, including Moldova, Poland, and Ukraine.

We are constantly looking to the future and part of that is attempting to identify those who might take the work and especially its spirit forward in the years to come. We cannot be sure about the directions the organization (and our world) will take, but there are some wonderful, younger people who are taking more and more roles and responsibilities. Many do so through the program called Action for Life. Some spend months at a time in different parts of the world.

I believe that we need to work to build on the common understanding that the earth is something that we all need to share. We can have hope for a better world as long as we appreciate that there is enough for everyone’s need, but not enough for everyone’s greed.

Can you talk a little about your own “spiritual biography”? Where does faith come into your own approach and work?

Well, I am a Hindu. I was born in India and went to school there, and to college. I lived in New Delhi during those years. My father was a journalist and newspaper editor.

My grandfather was assassinated when I was 12 and a half. So I was very much aware of him and his teachings during my early years. We saw him often and he was an important influence, including in my spiritual upbringing.

One part of the Hindu tradition that was important and is important to me to this day are the spiritual or devotional songs that are very much part of life in India, the Bhajans.

Hindu teaching says that the divine can be approached in three ways: through action, or knowledge, or devotion. The Bhajans aid ordinary people who may lack the courage for great action or the intellect for deep knowledge but who can nonetheless cry out to God.

These are wonderful songs with pleasant music and are a central theme in Hindu childhood. I remember them well and still listen to them and draw inspiration from them. They play a major part in laying the moral foundations for young people as they grow up and into adult life. They were important for my parents and were an important part of my grandfather’s spiritual life. At his ashram they were sung every morning and evening, and were part of the life of the community. So I associate them strongly with my childhood and with my parents.

Many Bhajans are about surrendering to God and the folly in looking for happiness in wealth and indulgence. Many are stories of individuals, how they are in trouble and are helped by God. One sings the story of a courageous elephant held by the leg by a crocodile and released from the grip through divine intervention. Another tells of a woman rescued from assault after she cries out to God for help. Other Bhajans tell of boys who serve their parents but also of one who defied a tyrannical father and was helped by God. These Bhajans have wonderful moral teachings – they warn against pride and conceit – but they also have riveting melodies that have lasted over the centuries.

One Bhajan that my grandfather was particularly fond of stresses that he only can be called good who knows another’s pain.

I met other faiths from an early age. Most Hindus have no problem with being open to other spiritual traditions. I have always felt, from the time I first met them, enriched by Christian texts, from the new and old Testaments, and draw inspiration from the Psalms, which I read again and again. I am affected also by passages from the Qur’an and Buddhist and Jain texts.

And I like and am reassured by the idea of a God who answers my prayers, even if not always in the way I had hoped for, and who I can turn to. I have no hesitation in turning to prayer, and believe that prayer is in itself a useful thing.

What about Initiatives for Change?

Frank Buchman, the founder, was a devout Christian. But he and the organization broadened their perspective steadily over time, initially to a much wider circle of Christians, then to non-Christians, and then to agnostics and atheists. The aim is to be inclusive in the broadest sense. But of those involved with Initiatives for Change, almost all have a clear spiritual core - though they vary widely in spiritual practice - where they go for nourishment and replenishment.

We have all learned and come to believe that anyone who does not have an explicit religious affiliation or practice is just as likely to be able to change the world. Many very different people are well able to live a caring, compassionate life. We never bang the door on a lack of belief.

Would you be comfortable applying the term faith-inspired to Initiatives for Change? We have come to see that term as far broader than faith-based, focusing on the inspiration more than the organizational link. And of course faith can mean many different things.

Quite comfortable. It describes it well. Diversity of faith manifestations and traditions is a part of IoC’s culture and approach.

What are you focusing on in your current scholarly work?

I am finishing a study that looks jointly at the American Civil War and the Indian Rebellion of 1857-59. The book should be out towards the end of the year. I was inspired by the fact that these two tumultuous events took place at nearly the same time but had not been looked at together. That aroused my curiosity. I found interesting parallels and connections.

One connection was provided by Lord Palmerston, who was the British Prime Minister during the American Civil War and during the Indian Rebellion. What Americans made at the time of the Indian Rebellion and what Indians then thought of the American Civil War were matters of interest to me and may be to others.

My study of Lincoln for this research has prompted me also to compare Lincoln and Gandhi. Not necessarily in a book, but I have done a paper on this subject. Both were assassinated, and both knew that they would be assassinated. Both suffered a great deal and were shaped by that. There are other somewhat superficial similarities, including the fact that both thought they were ugly. Both were drawn to reflect deeply on the basic causes of the conflicts in which they were involved. In Lincoln’s case, he came to believe that slavery was fundamentally evil, even as Gandhi believed that untouchability must be attacked and changed. Both enlisted political rivals in their cause. And above all both had the determination to face the totality of the issues that faced their nations, and wanted to find the deepest causes for their problems. Both were prepared to engage in a profound questioning of why we are where we are, and what we need to do to move forward. Each gave their deepest for the toughest.

How did you come to live in Illinois?

I first came here 12 years ago, when I was invited to spend a term at the University of Illinois, tied to the 50th anniversary of India’s independence. That one term stretched on to the present. I now have deep roots in Illinois, with many friends and many responsibilities, so I divide my time between here and India, which remains my home.

An audio link to a March 2009 interview/discussion with Rajmohan, addressing some similar themes, is available. He talks of impressions of the first months of the Obama administration.